"Ask a Christian what they believe will happen to you when you die if you don't believe in or worship their God."
Someone's eternal fate isn't based on belief ("You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." James 2:19) or worship ("Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21; "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" Luke 6:46).
"When they finally state that you will go to hell..."
False assumption (see above).
"...ask them if they think that you should be tortured for eternity for simply not believing what they believe."
No one will be tortured for eternity for simply not believing what I believe. I don't have that kind of power and authority. It's not for Curious Texan to determine what anyone should or shouldn't believe.
"Finish off by mentioning that after having known them for only a few minutes, they seem quite OK with the notion that you will suffer in agony forever, regardless of the good you have done during your entire life."
I'm absolutely not OK with the notion that anyone will suffer in agony forever, which is why I tell them that there's an alternative. An alternative not based on something as subjective as how much good they've done in their entire life.
People with more resources or longevity have a greater opportunity to do good than poor people, disabled people, or people who die too young to do a lot of good. It would be unfair to make heaven dependent on how much good you can do.
But there is a common denominator: sin. Some sin a lot more than others, but no one completely escapes this disqualifier from heaven, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". (Romans 3:23)
So what's the only fair solution? GRACE (God's Riches at Christ's Expense). This one-size-fits-all "get out of hell free card" is the only egalitarian way to give everyone the same opportunity to go to heaven.
"Ask them how can they ever expect you to be their friend or trust them."
When I had prostate cancer, I didn't need a friend; I needed someone to be honest with me and offer me a cure. Everyone (male or female) has the "cancer" of sin. There is a cure, but it requires to you give up the self-delusion that you're OK in and of yourself. Using the analogy of prostate cancer, I could have gone on for years without any symptoms - that wouldn't mean it wasn't still there, eating away at me.
And as far as trust is concerned, I wouldn't trust anyone who told me what I wanted to hear just to make me feel good for the short term.
"Don't you have anything better to do than proselytize on a blog?"
"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect," (1 Peter 3:15b; emphasis added)
I don't see any exception for blogs in that verse.
The title of Ted's post is "Ask a Christian." I was merely answering - hopefully with gentleness and respect. If it wasn't taken that way, my apologies.
Since Ted's dialogue was "a trifle one-sided" (to quote Inspector Renault in the movie Casablanca), I wanted to make it clear that the hope that I have as a Christian isn't based on how strongly I believe in God or how fervently I worship Him, as some non-Christians apparently think. It's by grace alone. I also didn't want anyone to think that I take any pleasure in anyone's eternal torture.
"The only way to heaven is through Jesus after all."
I couldn't agree more.
"For those of us that don't buy into it, we get something else."
Using my cancer analogy, you've sought a second opinion. As a person with free will, that's your right. But just as I chose to take care of my prostate cancer once and for all with a radical prostatectomy, I chose a similarly radical treatment for my sin.
"I wonder if in death, the proselytizing will end. One can only hope."
I think your hope is well founded: "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," (Hebrews 9:27)
It's been a pretty long time since I've engaged Ted on this topic, and it will probably won't happen again any time soon - don't all cheer at once. :) Unless, of course, he decides to "ask a Christian" again.
ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE PUBLISHED. And neither will racist,homophobic, or misogynistic comments. I do not mind if you disagree, but make your case in a decent manner.
From the great web site of Proud Atheists.
oh i love this..can i steal it?..
ReplyDeleteI'll try and remember to give credit where credit is due..but I'm old and I forget a lot..
"Ask a Christian what they believe will happen to you when you die if you don't believe in or worship their God."
ReplyDeleteSomeone's eternal fate isn't based on belief ("You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." James 2:19) or worship ("Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matthew 7:21; "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" Luke 6:46).
"When they finally state that you will go to hell..."
False assumption (see above).
"...ask them if they think that you should be tortured for eternity for simply not believing what they believe."
No one will be tortured for eternity for simply not believing what I believe. I don't have that kind of power and authority. It's not for Curious Texan to determine what anyone should or shouldn't believe.
"Finish off by mentioning that after having known them for only a few minutes, they seem quite OK with the notion that you will suffer in agony forever, regardless of the good you have done during your entire life."
I'm absolutely not OK with the notion that anyone will suffer in agony forever, which is why I tell them that there's an alternative. An alternative not based on something as subjective as how much good they've done in their entire life.
People with more resources or longevity have a greater opportunity to do good than poor people, disabled people, or people who die too young to do a lot of good. It would be unfair to make heaven dependent on how much good you can do.
But there is a common denominator: sin. Some sin a lot more than others, but no one completely escapes this disqualifier from heaven, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". (Romans 3:23)
So what's the only fair solution? GRACE (God's Riches at Christ's Expense). This one-size-fits-all "get out of hell free card" is the only egalitarian way to give everyone the same opportunity to go to heaven.
"Ask them how can they ever expect you to be their friend or trust them."
When I had prostate cancer, I didn't need a friend; I needed someone to be honest with me and offer me a cure. Everyone (male or female) has the "cancer" of sin. There is a cure, but it requires to you give up the self-delusion that you're OK in and of yourself. Using the analogy of prostate cancer, I could have gone on for years without any symptoms - that wouldn't mean it wasn't still there, eating away at me.
And as far as trust is concerned, I wouldn't trust anyone who told me what I wanted to hear just to make me feel good for the short term.
Don't you have anything better to do than proselytize on a blog? You danced all around his point.
ReplyDeleteThe only way to heaven is through Jesus after all. For those of us that don't buy into it, we get something else.
I wonder if in death, the proselytizing will end. One can only hope.
"Don't you have anything better to do than proselytize on a blog?"
ReplyDelete"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect," (1 Peter 3:15b; emphasis added)
I don't see any exception for blogs in that verse.
The title of Ted's post is "Ask a Christian." I was merely answering - hopefully with gentleness and respect. If it wasn't taken that way, my apologies.
Since Ted's dialogue was "a trifle one-sided" (to quote Inspector Renault in the movie Casablanca), I wanted to make it clear that the hope that I have as a Christian isn't based on how strongly I believe in God or how fervently I worship Him, as some non-Christians apparently think. It's by grace alone. I also didn't want anyone to think that I take any pleasure in anyone's eternal torture.
"The only way to heaven is through Jesus after all."
I couldn't agree more.
"For those of us that don't buy into it, we get something else."
Using my cancer analogy, you've sought a second opinion. As a person with free will, that's your right. But just as I chose to take care of my prostate cancer once and for all with a radical prostatectomy, I chose a similarly radical treatment for my sin.
"I wonder if in death, the proselytizing will end. One can only hope."
I think your hope is well founded: "Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," (Hebrews 9:27)
It's been a pretty long time since I've engaged Ted on this topic, and it will probably won't happen again any time soon - don't all cheer at once. :) Unless, of course, he decides to "ask a Christian" again.